31. How to Protect Your Home from Mold and EMF Exposure with Building Biologist Jo Lia

Is your home secretly affecting your health? In this episode of The Histamine Well Podcast, Joanne’s colleague Melanie Peers sits down with Building Biologist Jo Lia to uncover the hidden dangers of mold, electromagnetic fields (EMF), and poor indoor air quality.

Jo shares her journey into building biology and explains how unseen environmental factors—like hidden mold spores or constant EMF exposure—can impact your immune system, mood, and energy levels. Together, they break down what you can do to make your home a truly healthy space, from proper mold testing and remediation to simple steps that minimize EMF radiation in your daily life.

If you’ve struggled with chronic inflammation, fatigue, allergies, or unexplained symptoms, this episode will help you connect the dots between your home environment and your health.

What You’ll Learn:

• How to identify the early signs of mold in your home
• The truth about EMFs and how they affect your health
• Simple ways to reduce EMF exposure from Wi-Fi and devices
• What to do if you suspect mold contamination — and how to remediate safely
• Why modern airtight homes can worsen indoor air quality
• How to improve ventilation and maintain clean indoor air
• How to find and work with a certified Building Biologist
• Practical tips for creating a toxin-free, health-supportive living environment

Connect with Jo Lia:

🌿 Website: https://www.notoxrox.com/
📸 Instagram: @notoxrox
📘 Facebook: facebook.com/notoxrox

Australian Society of Building Biologists: https://www.asbb.org.au/

✨ Want more? Follow on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube for updates and tips.

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🧪 Curious about your methylation status? Try our at-home Methylation Test! In just 15 minutes, discover if you're over-methylating or under-methylating and receive targeted supplement recommendations to help rebalance. Use code HISTAMINEWELL10 for 10% off.

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📆 Work with us 1:1! Book a consultation and take your first step to real healing.

🎤 Have a topic suggestion? Submit it here!

Transcript

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Hi, it's Joanne. Both mold and electromagnetic fields are two invisible factors that can quietly undermine our health without us even realizing it from fatigue and sinus issues to unexplained inflammation. Our homes can sometimes be part of the problem. In this episode, you'll learn how to spot the subtle signs of mold exposure, what to do if you suspect contamination, and how electromagnetic fields might be impacting your wellbeing. Building biologists, Jo Lia shares practical evidence-based insights to help you create a home environment that truly supports your health. Welcome to the Histamine Well Podcast. Designed for practitioners and patients alike. This is your trusted source for insights on histamine intolerance, methylation, gut health, women's hormones, and much more. I'm Joanne Kennedy, your host, naturopath, author, and educator passionate about breaking down complex science into clear, accessible knowledge. Whether you are a health professional or navigating your personal wellness journey, the Histamine Well Podcast bridges the gap between cutting edge research and practical understanding to empower you with the tools to thrive. Before we get started, I just wanna say thank you so much to all of you who've been tuning in. I've loved hearing from so many of my loyal listeners, and even from my patients about how much this podcast is helping you understand your health and giving you extra knowledge about your condition. It honestly means so much to know these episodes are making a difference. If you can just take a minute to leave a quick review. It helps the show so much. It gives us extra traction so more people can find this information, learn and start healing too. Jo, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Melanie. It's great to be on the podcast and good to see you again. It's been a long time. It has been. So I guess to begin with, do you wanna just tell everybody a little bit about how you got into building biology and what you do in your line of work? Yeah. So basically, it's all started when I was first pregnant with my firstborn child, which was 21 years ago. I just became a little bit obsessed with all the, you know, the pesticides that were in use and the stain resistant products and flame retardants and everything. And I just became really overwhelmed when I discovered that the AU bands. A lot of the chemicals that are still in use in Australian products. So I sort of took a bit of a deep dive on it and started just researching and then telling anyone that would listen, which wasn't too many people. And then I discovered building biology, which I thought, oh, okay, maybe I should do a course on this and make a career out of it. Since I'm so obsessed with it. So basically what a building biologist does is say, look at anything in the indoor environment that can affect your health and tell you how to fix it or what you can do to swap things out and just have a nice, healthy home that you're living in. Basically anything to do with air quality, VOCs, offgassing from building materials, mold and moisture issues. We look at electromagnetic fields. We look at water quality. Yeah, indoor air quality, all that sort of stuff. Lead, heavy metals, and products. We'll look at the products you're using and tell you, you know, if there are better options. Yeah, so, so much more than just mold, right? Yeah. Yeah. A lot more than mold, but mold is over the last five or six years, it's 90% of my work. Yeah, it's a really big topic and this is where we do start to have to look at environment. When we see, if you are someone who is experiencing a laundry list of symptoms, we always see people coming in. I've seen this naturopath, that naturopath that's not working. And I always hate these naturopaths are doing the exactly the right thing that they should be doing for that condition. But when those things don't work like they should, you need to look at your environment. And that's where somebody like you can be really helpful. So we will focus mainly on mold'cause that is what we deal with in the majority of our clients as well. What would you say are some of the early signs at a home or a work environment may have be impacted by mold? Often the first thing you'll find is that there'll be a musty smell. That's a really common one. If you've left the house or your office closed up for a couple of days, or you've gone away on holidays and then you come back, musty smell. If you can smell mold, it's there. It might be hidden, but it is there. So that's a really obvious one. History of leaks. It's always good to know about the history of a building. Has there been any leaks? How were they dealt with? Was it dealt with in a timely period? Was the carpet dried out within three days, completely dry? Or was it just left to dry naturally and you know, it'll be right sort of thing. That's a really important one as well.'cause we often find that. If you don't know what's happened in the house and you just bought the house, you could be buying a money pit basically. If there's been a whole lot of issues going on there. So that's something that everyone should try and get to the bottom of, or have a really good inspection before you buy a house so that you can see what's going on. Other signs would be what are the foundations of the house like? So is there, when it rains, does water pool around the house? Is water directed away from the foundations like it should be? Or is it moving towards the foundations? What's a crawl space like? Is there a crawl space you should go under there? I'm always surprised that people haven't looked under the house when they've just bought a house or something. That'll give you a really good indication of whether you're gonna have damp problems, whether you've got rising damp. You know, those sort of things can be avoided if you sort of know what to look for first. And I guess the other one is just occupants are sick. If people in the house are getting sick, then it's very likely that there, there could be a mold issue or something similar going on in the home. They'll commonly get respiratory issues. They might have behavioral problems. But like you said, they might go to a practitioner spend a lot of money on supplements and do all these things and what have you, and they're not improving. And so if you're not improving and you're really making efforts to change things in your life, then it could be something environmental that's causing it. Yeah. Jo Kennedy and I always say, we can tell on the intake form usually because they've ticked several boxes in every category of body systems. That's a risk red flag, that laundry list of symptoms, it can be a big red flag. Why do you think mold is becoming so widespread? And we'll talk mainly about Australia'cause that's where we live. Do you think our climate and building materials and building practices are having an impact on the mold issue getting worse? Yeah, definitely. I mean, we have very humid summers. We're very coastal. Well, most people live very close to the coastal with an hour of the beach, right? So our cities are sort of lined up. And if you live from Sydney right up to Northern Queensland, along the coast, it's just humid. It's humid all the time. Humid summers. We have severe storms and really heavy rainfalls regularly. So we've just got a very high humidity constantly. And that's a battle, especially if you are living in a home and you're closing up that home and you're not getting that air exchange regularly. Then that humidity is gonna end up turning into mold, and mold will grow in your house. So building design is another issue in itself. I mean, pretty lightweight buildings these days. Basically a lot of our houses are built with a lot of paper in the building materials. And paper is, you know, mold's food source. So number one, food source. It's like McDonald's for mold really. So I've heard that Mac is for mold. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, even our plasterboard has got a paper lining on it. And then you can have issues going on inside the wall cavity if you've got like lots of metal in the wall cavity. For example, and you've got these temperature differences between the warm air hitting the cold air. In certain areas of the building, that's what we call thermal bridges. And that's when you get condensation and then you get mold growth. So that could be happening behind a wall and you won't know about that for maybe years. But there could be a, an ongoing problem in wall cavities, in roof cavities. Or just, you know, you'll see it around your windows. You'll see it coming up in certain sections of your ceiling. It's like, why does it always come up on that section? You know, right along the edge of the perimeter of the ceiling there. And it's like, oh, maybe the insulation doesn't go all the way, you know, to the ceiling, in which case you're getting a big temperature difference and so you're going to get mold growth. So yeah. Building design is definitely a major, major issue I think these days. You know, there's the issue of the architects that wanna build the house that looks beautiful and amazing and it does most of the time. But they'll often want to, it's all about, you know, flat roofs and hiding the drainage system and building it in into the walls cavities where you can't sort of see what's going on. And look, sometimes these things can work. Planter boxes and terraces above living spaces. And look, when these are things are built correctly, they work really well and they're exceptionally beautiful to look at. But then you've got the issue of, you know, the builders coming in and all the different trades, and then you've got the waterproofer and the til and the thing. And if something goes wrong anywhere in that process, it can create a massive moisture problem which can be really hard to find in some of these newer builds. Yeah. I think in 2025 in Australia, there is so many buildings going up. So much development happening. These houses are being thrown up so quickly. I think perhaps subcontractors may not be as competent as maybe the builder would like, but, you know, yeah. Different times call for the different best desperate measures. The rain that we've had in 2025 has been obscene. And I see homes who've got the framework. The wooden framework sitting out in that rain. They're not allowing it to dry out all or the concrete slab. It's such a rush to get everything done now, isn't it as well? It is. And that's a real problem. I've spoken to many, many builders about this, and I'm like, what do you do and what do you do in this situation? Like it's going moldy. And he's like, what can we do? You've got the frame up and it's saturated, but they have to bill. They have to get it done. And you know, I even see it with insurance companies. There's so many things when something goes wrong and they'll rip off a bit of a building and go, oh, we'll fix it, don't worry, we'll get there. And they'll leave it uncovered, no tarps over it or whatever. And then it rains and then you've just got another issue. You're just creating mold. So yes, wet building materials that can't breathe and dry out and then are trapped, become a massive problem in homes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And not to be an alarmist, but it's just a little bit scary to think that one person's incompetence or even just having a bad day and making a simple mistake can have significant effects on your health if that does create moisture getting into the home that then can't get out, that allows mold to grow. But these are the things that we are dealing with. Exactly. And I think if you are building a new home or doing a renovation, you really have to be on top of it. You've gotta do a bit of research first to understand what you need to know and what you need to do. Or hire somebody to do that but somebody needs to be there and be sort of overseeing it with your intentions in mind. Because a building biologist intentions or if you want a healthy home. It's very different to the intention of the designers and the builders and the trades. And you gotta be very careful with how you're dealing with everyone. You don't wanna step on anyone's toes and you don't wanna, but you just sort of gotta make it clear, oh, well, you know, I'm really concerned about this and I'm really worried about the waterproofing. Can you please tell me exactly what you're doing, how you're doing it? What products are you using? When's it gonna happen? I wanna be here to watch it happen to make sure, you know, because things go wrong. You've gotta be a bit of a Karen in those situations. Unfortunately, to get too, try to be a nice Karen. A nice Karen. Don't upset anyone. No yelling. But yeah, because people don't understand. Do they? They don't understand. Yeah. And again, these builders they're so impacted by the weather. And so if we have had delays, we've got other jobs that they need to move on to. So it is a really delicate balance for their timeline as well. Absolutely. So it, there's no intention or malice behind it, it's just the nature of the beast. I think that that's right. And look with mold on wood and timber and stuff like that, they've got, most of them they'll sort of say to me. Oh, it's not really a problem. It'll dry out. The number of builders I've said, oh, that wall's saturated. And they'll go, they'll touch it and go, nah, it's dry. And I said, no, no, no. But I've got a moisture meter. It's not wet to touch, but my moisture meter says it's saturated one inch behind the wall. And most of them don't even have a moisture meter, which I find absolutely incredible because it's so important that the building materials have to be oh, you know, look, maybe I'm just seeing the apprentices or something. I don't want to diss all the builders out there.'Cause I've worked with some really amazing builders. But yeah. It's an understanding of no, no, no. When we say it's damp or it's wet, what we mean is it's wet enough to support mold and that's a problem.'cause if it stays like that for an extended period of time and it's not getting the right airflow, mold will grow. And if it doesn't grow on this side, it'll be growing on the other side. Which is equally as bad. If only they were receiving some training, right? To understand how to build healthy homes. But I think we're a while away from that yet, but we can hope. Yeah, I think so. What about the move towards very e energy efficient homes and the airtight homes? Is that causing a problem? Yeah. So the airtight homes, that's definitely, I find that to be a big issue actually. Look, if you live in the old buildings, the way the old buildings in Australia, or definitely the old buildings in Sydney, we've got those really old style, a hundred year old homes, very, very leaky air in and out. You can't really heat it in winter because the air just goes out through the single glazed window. And you know, keeping cold. Cooler in summer is difficult as well in a lot of these houses. But if you live in them and you let them breathe and you are not heating and cooling and shutting the windows and you've just got airflow every day. They work perfectly fine. I live in a very old house and we rarely heat it and we rarely cool. We just use fans in summer and got one single little heater. Now most people are not gonna live like that. We're like, put a jacket on, get out. You know, I'm not dealing with mold. So it's what we're doing, right? But most people won't live like that. So they want heating and nice and have it comfortable and everything, and that's great. You can do that. But you have to understand how the house works and is it breathing. And if you are closing it up and making it airtight, there's still gotta be those air exchanges and the air's gotta, you know, come out. Like every time you turn on an extractor fan in the bathroom, you are pulling air from your house and it's going out there. So you're creating a movement where the air is moving from your house up. So if you've got like a crawl space and the crawl space is moldy, you are drawing air from up there and it's coming up through the house and out through the extractor fans, right? So there's a real science to how the air's moving in your house and what's creating that movement. And you have to understand where it's coming from. So if you've got your range hood and then extract the fan on in this bathroom, and another one in that bathroom. You've got all your windows closed, but you've got like a moldy subfloor. Then you're bringing that up into the air and it's trapped in there. Now it's trapped into your house. And I've seen people, I did a job a couple of years ago now in the inner West, and they were given, there must have been a government grant. A lot of these old sort of terrace houses were given a lot of money to put towards making the house more energy efficient. So they were given a certain amount of money that had to be spent on certain windows or, ventilation coming into the home, or just things that were gonna seal it up and make it more energy efficient. And this lady had spent the money on sucking on the roof. Now, sucking on the roof is a great thing in normal circumstances. But she'd sealed up all the windows. She'd sealed up everything else. But her house was such an old style house. That what she did was she sealed it up to the point that there was just no air and she created mold through her entire attic. And all through the top levels of her house. And then there was rising damp issues, which she was getting mold. She's always had rising damp. But in a leaky house that damp just dries out the humidity goes into the air, and then it evaporates, and it's fine. As soon as you seal it up, then you start getting mold everywhere. So what she did was she just created like a little mold haven with the money that was spent on retrofitting and making it a nice passive house. In Europe they have all these really airtight homes and they're just built perfectly. But they always come with a HRV or an ERV system. So the lungs of the house, the HVAC system, are working with the house. So there's a constant flow of clean air that's being recycled and coming back in. And it's all done perfectly. So they don't have these problems. They also have double or triple glazed windows and they build with proper building materials and better building practices. So they don't have the sort of issues that we have here, but it's like we've adopted some of their methods, but we haven't done the full. If you're gonna do it like that, you've gotta do it properly. I do have a lot of European clients and they still have culture. They will always ventilate the home, open the windows, let the air. Even in the dead of winter, they still allowing that air flow whereas in Australia we are closing the doors, putting the air conditioning on in summer and then closing the doors and the windows and putting the heater on in winter. And we don't get much of that airflow happening. Like kinda what our grandmothers used to do, that fresh air. That was one of the biggest problems in our old home. The ventilation was terrible. Even if we opened the windows, we just didn't get good airflow throughout. And now that I do live by the beach, I learned my lesson that you can't leave everything open or doors start slamming eternally. Yeah, that's true. So yes, but I'm very big on opening the windows now that I have that beautiful airflow. Great. I love that. Okay. So one thing that I find really challenging dealing with people who I believe are affected by mold illness based on their symptoms is they say there's no mold present. You can't see it. The house is perfectly clean. There's not a stitch of mold. Can there still be a mold problem even if you can't see it? Yeah, absolutely. It's very sneaky. You've got the airborne spores, you've got the fragments, mycotoxins released from mold. And it can be growing anywhere. It can be growing behind a wall, in a roof cavity, in the crawl space or anywhere in your room. The amount of time when people say, I've got no mold, and I look straight under the bed and on the wooden slats and there'll be mold on the wooden slats. Sometimes a lot of people have very dark bedrooms or whatever and rooms that they mightn't use very often and they don't have very bright light there. And if you get a torch and you shine it very carefully across a ceiling, one room I could just smell mold and I'm like, there is so much mold in this room, I can barely breathe. And then she's going, no, no, I don't see any. I don't see any. And I shine a light on the ceiling. And it was so evenly speckled with mold over the entire ceiling. And that mold must have been there for 30 or 40 years. When it wasn't created by her, it was created by the original owners, it was just from high humidity. Constant chronic high humidity had caused that issue. But yeah, you've gotta also know what to look for, but if you can smell it or if you can see it and sometimes neither of those things will be there, but it can still be affecting you. Yeah. And that's the hardest thing. You know, it has nothing to do with how clean you keep your home. It could be a pipe that is very slowly dripping in a wall cavity that you don't even know about. And that's where I do find it the most challenging'cause people don't want to think, they think there's nothing here. So do you have, I don't know, an anecdotal story that you could tell us about a house that you've been into where it didn't look like there was anything there, and then you found maybe in behind a wall there was a massive problem or something like that? Just to reassure people because that's the biggest hurdle I have. People just don't want to. And it is hard to believe that your home is making you sick. And I do understand that'cause I've been there. Yeah, actually I've done a couple of new builds. Two new builds in the last probably month. Absolutely beautiful houses, but the same problem in both house. Well actually slightly different. One was in the garage. One was water getting in and look, they still don't know how that water was getting in. If it was getting in from above the garage door. They dunno if it was getting in right at the top. But it was coming in and it was just coming down like just a slow drip. And the owner just saw it one day and she was absolutely paranoid about mold because she moved from her old house because of mold and she thought that getting a brand new house she shouldn't have any problems. So anyway, we get there. I test it. The builders come back and go, no, no, no, it's fine. We'll just put a bit of a vapor barrier here and do whatever. And she's like, no, no, no. I think there's mold there. So she got me to test it and sure enough, I did an air test and it comes back very high with Stacky vultures. So then I talked to the builders and I'm like, look, there's no way you can just seal this up because the stacky is there and we know it's there. We don't know where it is because you haven't found the actual wet timber yet. But it's only there when something is saturated and it's been there for a while. So you know, it has to be found before you seal that up. So they were like, oh, we've stopped the leak. We've done a water test, sprayed water on it. We're going to just seal it up. And I just said, no, you, you can't.'cause it will still be there and there's a bedroom above it and it's a little girl's bedroom, so you can't do that. Anyway, so they were really good builders and they're very keen to sort it out. They ended up pulling the entire garage door off, chopping out chunks of timber where they could, and then they had to sand other areas and what have you, and they fixed it. In the other house, she had a problem in her bedroom where she could smell it and she didn't know where it was and the house is only six months old. And eventually she thought, oh, is that a tiny little bit of staining on my carpet? And she lifted up the carpet. Black mold all under the carpet. She was right beside the balcony from the bedroom. So that's almost certainly what was going wrong, because that's always what goes wrong. There'll be a waterproofing issue on a balcony and then water comes in. Anyway, the builders come back and they said they wanted to fix it. And she started to panic'cause she is also very concerned about mold. So she said, Jo, can you please come down and make sure you're here when they do it? Which was good because stupidly, the first thing they did was they waterproof the whole outside of the house. So they re waterproofed the balcony. They waterproofed the walls. And then they did a leak test with a hose and go, ah, it's all done, no water coming in. And I said, but why would you do that first? Why didn't you do that so we could see where the water was coming in. Because it may not be coming from the balcony. It might be coming from the top, it might be coming from the back. You know, and they're, oh no, it stopped now. It's all good. And they weren't gonna pull the skirting off. And I said, no, you have to take the skirting off. And you've gotta go 30 centimeters further than where we've seen the mold. So they cut it out, see mold, all surprised, and then go another 30 centimeters, you know, further back and above and round. And then I said, you know, this all has to be dried out. And they weren't as keen on.. They're like, it's dry. You know, again, touching the wood, it's dry. I go and I get my pin moisture meter and go look. A hundred percent, it's as saturated as it gets. So that has to be dried out before you seal that wall up. And it needs to be tested for mold. You can't seal it up if there's mold on there. So they weren't happy about that. But at the end of the day, you know, the house is under warranty and it needs to be done. That's really good information because it sounds like having you on their side with the remediation. Because this is the thing, people are dealing with insurance, they might be dealing with landlords, they might be dealing with the original builder who are just there to quickly, basically they wanna shut you up, get the job done, and get out of there. And you are there to make sure it's done properly. That's right. And I write a scope of works and when it's all formally written and then you know, if they don't follow that, then legally that would be an issue down the line. I'm always recommending that the number one standard is getting a building biologist in. You know, there's so much information that you have. Not everyone can afford it. But it is worth the money because of the time it can save you and the nightmare and the headache because it is difficult. There's a really broad different understanding of the impacts of mold from, it's fine. It's not a big deal to knowing that it can absolutely destroy somebody's health and anywhere in between. Absolutely. And you know, you just want things done properly and somebody has to be there to oversee it. And look, the problem is when houses are under warranty, the builders will just come in and they'll fix it and they'll do it their way. The good ones will sometimes pay for like me to come in if the owner says, no, I want a building biologist so I know what's going on. I need this. You need to pay for the post remediation verification. So the testing at the end to say that it's fine. They'll often do that. But they might not pay for me to go there and just be like, ah, hang on. What are you doing now? Can you do this? Can you I say it in the nicest possible way too. I'm really nice. I'm not like, happy you, Karen. That part remediation verification I imagine would make them a lot more, willing to go that extra mile to make sure that they really have got it. So they don't have to again. Oh, that's right. Because otherwise they've gotta come back again and do it again. And then pay for more testing to make sure that it's, it passes. Yeah. Before we go any further, I want to speak directly to the practitioners and students listening. If you're intrigued by histamine and methylation and eager to expand your knowledge in this fascinating area, we offer the Histamine and Methylation online group coaching course. The only program of its kind, it covers everything you need to know about histamine and methylation, providing both the theory and guidance you need to treat these issues effectively in clinical practice. We cover sibo, hormonal imbalances, oxalates, M-T-H-F-R, the four pathways of methylation, including the folate pathway, methionine pathway, tetra hydro biopterin pathway, and the all important transsulfuration pathway and much more. The program is delivered by detailed online webinars and handouts for you to keep and for eight weeks you'll meet with me for live coaching calls in a private community space with other practitioners from all over the world dealing with histamine and methylation issues in their patients every day. Together we learn so much. To learn more and apply, visit joannekennedynaturopathy.com. So if someone suspects they do have a mold problem, what would you say the first three things or first steps that they should take? And is there anything they should avoid doing? Because sometimes we get to them a bit too late and they've done something and they've made things worse. The first thing to do is find the moisture and stop the moisture. Sometimes it's really obvious you've got a leak or you see a big patch come up on the circle and you go, okay, that's clearly a leak. So fix it. Stop that water coming in. The next thing I would say would be improve the ventilation. So air everything out. Make sure everything's, you know, wipe things down. Wipe any mold that you see that's not more than a meter squared. And you don't wanna be wiping mold that's come from a big leak. So if you've got a big circle of black mold on your ceiling, don't touch it. But if it's just like a little bit of speckly mold on the skirting or something like that, give it a clean with a microfiber cloth and maybe a bit of vinegar or soapy water and just keep it clean and ventilate. And then work out whether you, do you need to get this tested. Do you need a proper assessment done? And then if that's the case, then get somebody in to do that. But most of the mold, if it's just humidity based mold, it's just a small area and you know why it's there. If you know it's there because of humidity and condensation and the kids haven't been turning on the extractor fan and you know they're having hot 30 minute showers or something, then you know why it's there. So you can deal with that. But if it's, well we get it all the time. We don't have very long showers. I think our extractor just goes straight into the ceiling cavity. It doesn't go outside. You could have a whole lot more issues going on. It could be happening in the roof cavity, could have mold going on. So first thing, yeah, obviously always protect yourself with the protection. If it's going to be bad, find the moisture source, stop it. Improve ventilation and airflow and then work out if you need an assessment or not. They're probably the main things to do. Do not use bleach to clean it. Don't paint over it. I see that often. Like, oh, well, it's fine. We'll just paint over it, it's gone now. And don't ignore any health symptoms. So if anyone's sick, then you know, move quickly. Yeah. And I would say don't go missing. As I said, if you've got a big patch of black mold, don't go knocking down your bathroom without protective equipment for yourself, but even protective sheeting to stop it from contaminating the rest of the home. And don't let anyone come in and drag moldy materials through your bedroom from the en suite and contaminate It happens so often. Yeah. So yeah. Don't go all gung-ho and start breaking gyp rock walls and sometimes somebody will just wanna go, oh, just rip it out. It'll be fine. And drag it through the house and Yeah. No, like you said, that will create big problems. Yeah. So I always recommend to our patients you get an individual inspection done. And then who is not the remediation professional so that there's no issues there. If someone is having an issue with remediation. So some people there's a long wait list to get remediation. Some people where they are, they just can't get anybody out there. Perhaps, they're on a lease with their landlord and they plan to move out. Are there things that people can do to minimize the mold in the home to help with their health? Because some people do feel very trapped. Now I've had a couple of clients, and this is just their anecdotal evidence that has helped them is doing things like fogging a ozone, which that is not a remediation technique on its own. But if the things people can do to try and reduce that toxic load of the mold whilst they're figuring out the next step? Yeah. Look, I would be very cautious of fogging and ozone. It can temporarily reduce the airborne spore levels because fogging is basically when they spray something. Sometimes a chemical, sometimes it's fairly non-toxic. But what it does is it's works in theory because it dampens down the mold spores, brings'em to the ground, and then you can mop them up or you can vacuum them. And that's what a lot of mold remediation companies will use. But they're never, or they're supposed to never use it as a standalone tactic. I know there are a lot of some mold remediation companies out there that all they do is fogging. They go to the house and they go, oh, I'm gonna spray this. And they're in there for like an hour. They spray. They mop off. They go and you know, you pay$1,500 or something and you go, oh, great. The mold's gone. I only paid$1,500. That guy was gonna charge me 10,000. So what a deal. Well, no, it's not a deal because it hasn't worked. Ozone also has some issues because, you know, ozones ozone. And not only is it, I mean you wouldn't be using ozone if you in the house. I know some people use air purifiers, which I actually had one once that was an ionizer. And it used to have this smell. So I only used it about three times'cause I was really concerned. But it actually, I noticed that all my bathers, all my bikinis had, all the elastic was gone in all of them, like all at once. And I was like what on earth happened? And I think it was producing ozone as a byproduct. And that was causing problem that causes problems with clothing. I had a lot of tops and jumpers that were just all stretchy and lost all their, I'm like, what on earth is going on? So be very careful with using things like ozone. I mean, I think you can hire machines and things, but I'd be super, super careful of that. A better way to deal with it is do what we said. You contain it. Like if it's an area, that's the problem room. Stay out of it. Maybe put plastic around it and tape it shut and just stay out of it. If it's a room that's, it's not too bad mold and you sort of have to use it and you can't get out or whatever, clean the mold that you can clean. Wear a little face mask a P95 or a P2 or a a N95 mask. Control the moisture, stop the moisture, use dehumidifiers, use air purifiers if you need to. If you have to stay in that room and sleep in that room. And it's a bit of a problem. Open the windows during the day. So they're probably the better things that you could do if you had to deal with it rather than, I wouldn't do any fogging. I don't think. It's not a standalone thing. And look, if it is bad, and I see this a lot people in rentals especially. They feel a bit trapped and they're like, oh, well, there's nothing I can do. Or they might be, you know, young guys in their twenties or something. They're just like, oh, it's not that bad, is it? But I've been really unwell. I haven't been able to work. I'm like, yeah, it's really bad. Like, you need to get out because the fight with the landlord or like them fixing it and they're not gonna fix it properly. That's what I say. They're never going to fix it properly. Not to your standard. So I often recommend if you get some sampling done and the levels are bad enough, you go to your landlord, you say, I'm leaving and I'm getting my bond back and I'm not paying any extra. And that's what the report's good for. Like, that's what I do a lot. I go, look, it's gonna cost you this much, but you'll have a report. The report can go to ncat. And you usually, it's enough. They just see the report and they're like, oh, this is too hard. Off you go. Use your bond back. And they just put somebody else in there. So it is important to have that though.'cause once if you've got the report then you've got a leg to send on when you go to ncat. And look, I've gotta say at the tribunal these days, they're really are looking after the tenants. If they're being put in a moldy environment, it's usually goes in their favor. So they're not sort of standing for these unsafe environments anymore, which is great. Amazing. And so you can help people through that process. Can you? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, good. Yes. Ask me and exciting insurance companies, that's, oh yeah. Nice. Because that's a nightmare too. This is the thing because they have all these questions for me and I'm like, I work with the body, I work with helping. I know. And some of the things that you have been saying, I do tell people, create that safe space. Keep minimal belongings. Try and keep it as clean as possible. But you know, they can feel very trapped. And testing it just gives such clear cut evidence. Your landlord is unlikely to believe you if you just go in there and say, I found some mold. Yeah, they'll say, so what? Clean it up. Or they often blame the tenant. Or they'll say, it's your fault. Your fault. You haven't been used in the extractor fan or this or that. So yeah, that's right. So that's why report's really handy.'cause it'll say, no, it's a rising damp issue. Or no, it's a leak that was just, you know, it was just paint or there's mold all over the ceiling. It was just covered and painted. So what does a quality remediation look like from start to finish? Let's use a scenario of maybe there is a waterproofing issue in the bathroom. They're gonna gut and renovate the whole bathroom, what would they be doing? Yeah, if there's a waterproofing issue you would get, first of all, you probably, yeah, you can get a mold remediation company in directly or you'd probably get it tested, find out what's going on. I mean, look, if you're renovating, it's a bit different'cause you'll just have builders there and they'll just start knocking things down. They're gonna find mold and they're just going, oh, and we see this every day. It's fine. And throwing things around. But you should say, stop, hang on a minute. You know, just stop for a minute. There needs to be containment. So a good mold remediation company would put up containment, which is like the little zipper, plastic doors. And depending on how bad the situation is, sometimes they have to create like a decontamination zone. So they might have a little cube that they build with plastic. And so you walk into that decontamination chamber, you shut the door behind you. And then you unzip the other one and walk into the other room. Now, that's only in extreme cases. They will go in there, they will have a negative air pressure system with air scrubbers going to protect themselves and to keep the air going to the outside so that even if these doors were open a little bit, it's drawing air out. It's not sucking it from the house. It's not positive pressure pushing it back into the house. They'll probably have hydroxyls, they'll have the air exchange. They're supposed to have like at least four air exchanges per hour. They should be wearing all the full getup and they often don't. But they do, if it's a serious job, they'll be wearing respirators and all the gear. They are supposed to cut out any mold they see. So they take out the mold, the tiles, they take the wall back to the foundation, see how far it's gone. Is it, what kind of wall cavity is it? What's on the other side? You know, it might be backing onto a bedroom and there might be wall on the back of the gyprock that's on the bedroom. So if that's the case, then that would have to be done as well. They cut everything out. They're supposed to double bag everything. Then they put it in the containment zone, they lock up and then they go back out. And so that's the process. It's nothing is supposed to be taken through the house that isn't double bagged. Often it's a good idea to, they'll pass it out a window, which is much easier for them. Then they've gotta scrub everything. They have to get rid of any physical mold that they see on forest materials has to be removed. They can scrub, you know, like timber frames. Anything that can't be moved, they can sand. I think they can sand up to about three millimeters on a structural piece of wood. But if the spores have got in very, very deep then that might be an issue. In worst case scenario, what they will do is they will encapsulate the mold. Sometimes, for example, if it's a terrace house and you've got a shared sort of wall situation and they're cleaning your bathroom wall or they're pulling off something, they're not actually allowed to touch that other wall because it belongs to another property and it might have mold all over it. And they've removed all the mold on your wall and they're replacing all that. So they might just spray an encapsulate to try and encapsulate there and just sort of keep it there. It's not ideal, but that's really all they can do in those situations. Other times it might be a structural beam or something and it's got all little nooks and crannies that you can't really get to and they can't move it. So then they might spray it with an encapsulant. In that case, then I would come in when I was doing the post remediation verification and take samples from that area to say, are we still getting mold there? In which case it, it wasn't done properly and they have to come back and do it again. We'll take air samples. So yeah that's what they do. The mold remediation company doesn't put it back together. It just pulls it apart. And then you would get a PRV. Somebody like me coming in and testing it. And if I give it the all clear, then the builders come in and redo the bathroom and then all the containment's down and you go about your business. And hopefully don't get mold again. So yeah. It can Sounds like containment. Removing.'cause I always say you don't kill mold, you don't clean mold, you've gotta remove it. The microfiber CLOs on those small amounts. You're removing it from the surface. Because even dead mold can release toxins. Well, about 70% of mold is already dead. And the idea of killing it, you're probably just gonna aggravate it and make it release its microtoxins and things. So Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You just remove it. Just remove it. If it's a small amount, you can remove it yourself. But if it's a bigger one you don't touch it. Yeah. I've heard a lot you know, the HEPA sandwich. So the HEPA filters and so they got a clean Yes. So at the end, like if they were doing a room different in a bathroom, because it'll be retiled and everything. But yeah. In a normal room at the end they do like a top down clean. So they will wet wipe everything. They hepa vacuum everything first actually and then they wet wipe everything down. Supposed to change the cloths, wipe or what have you, and then Hepa vacuum again every surface. And, you know, none of this is cheap. It's very expensive to do that. But yeah, you do want it done properly.'Cause you don't wanna risk everything. And then you really wanna protect all your stuff as well. So you don't want these spores just roaming around, floating around the house and landing in your clothing or your couches or your mattresses. I'm sure you've seen horror stories and I've had clients tell me that, you know, the third remediation is what finally got rid of it. Cause it wasn't done right the first time the insurance did it. I had someone who, the third time they said to the insurance, give me the money. I'm finding someone to do it myself. Because the people you're sending are not doing it properly. So another really contentious point I get is about belongings, porous furniture. Things like mattresses, lounges and whether yeah, mycotoxins can infiltrate that, whether that can be cleaned or a mediator. What's your opinion on that? Generally, well what the IICRC S520, that's basically the American standard, which is Australia is going to adopt it as our standards, which is coming in any time now. Basically it says porous items and semi porous items. So porous items, it depends how contaminated they're. So I hear a lot of people like, oh my God, you know, on a lot of these forums they'll be like, you've gotta throw out everything, pack up and leave. And I'm like, hang on, calm down. Like first of all, we are talking about, they'll put their mold, their lab results up there, and it's like, no, okay. You don't, we understand that you're sick and you're probably more susceptible to it. But you don't have to necessarily fry it. Everything. It's very important, like, what was contaminated? Was it in a contaminated room? Does it smell musty? Like, yes. If it's been severely contaminated and you've got CIRS or you are very unwell or someone's very unwell. Yeah, maybe it's better to just throw out the couch or throw out the mattress or whatever. But if it's just a one or 2-year-old mattress and you're living in a really clean, spotless house and you've got a problem down the other end of the house. This mattress is gonna be fine. I can assure you. You can have a vacuum it. Hit the mattress, have a vacuum. It's gonna be fine. But generally porous items. And you'll know, like if you get the clothing and the clothing's got that really musty smell. It's probably been sitting in a moldy cupboard for a very long time and it may not have physical mold. What can you do? If you really wanna keep something, you wash it in borax, I soak things in like, I had a friend give me a moldy. It smelled like mold top once. And I really love the top and I'm like, I'm gonna see if I can salvage it. So you soak it in borax and then, put it through the wash in the hottest wash it could handle with soap. I did that two or three times and then hung it on the line in the sun. And then I give it the sniff test and it smelled superb. It was totally fine. Completely nice. So it's fine that can come back in. Yeah, that's what I reckon meant to my face. And I had one wool and blanket. I couldn't get the smell out after three washes we just had to. Yeah. And that's it. And it's like people will do it with leather and they're like, oh, it's still got the dots here. I go, well, it's in there. So like, I'm sorry, you can't. I mean, you can wear it moldy and leave it outside and then wear it to the pub or to the football or whatever. Leave it in a plastic tub in the garage and only wear it outside the house. But I wouldn't bring it in and put it with my other clothes. So basically the poorest stuff you've gotta be careful with and really think about it, books. And some people go, oh, I've gotta throw out every book. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, what room was it? A lot of books have mold anyway. A lot of books are really old, like 30 years old. You know, if you go to the library and you bring home a book, good chance it's probably got some mold on it or a little bit of that discoloration on the outside. So you have to think, how sensitive are you. How important is it to you. And how affected was it? Was it in a contaminated room? And now a lot of people get. They have PTSD from their mold exposures and things have gone really wrong. And they're so paranoid that everything they own is moldy. That you know, I've seen people and they're like, Jo, let's test this kitchen plate. And I said, I'm not. Why would you spend money on testing that plate when we can put that in the dishwasher? Yeah, it's totally fine. Right? If it's metal, if it's plastic, if it's, or a hard plastic, or metal or anything hard. Ah, yes, you can wash it. Yeah. Yes. You can give those things a wash. They're totally fine. Those forums can be a very dangerous place to reside. And I often say to people, they exist. If you have a question you wanna ask somebody, you go in. You ask your question and then you get out. Do not linger because you get anxious reading. And there's a lot of misinformation in there. And yeah. There's people telling people to leave their homes and you know, it's crazy. And now look, I know there are some really, really bad situations out there. But you can't. It's gotta be tested, looked at in as a holistic approach. You've gotta look at the whole history of the home, what's going on. It's the same with even mold testing. You can't just look at the numbers and go, oh my God. Because it's all relative to the big picture. So yeah. Each case is individual. This is why I think it's so important to have someone like you go out, because people will often ask me, what should I do? And I'm like, I'm not in your home. We're on Zoom. And I'm not a building biologist either, so it's very difficult for me. All I know is you need to get rid of the mold contamination to healing. And depending on how bad it is, you may not be able to ever recover in that home if it's in every inch. Just going back to the belongings, one thing I often tell people is.. Because it can be really hard to make decisions when you're living with all of the brain fog. So I always say, pack it away in a plastic tub. Keep it in a garage or somewhere off site. And make your decisions later because when you have clear head and your health is recovered and you're feeling better, that item often is not as important anymore. Yeah, that's right. And look at that item and think. It has the potential to make me sick again. I actually don't care about that item at all. It can go and other things are sentimental that you wanna keep. And you could potentially bring them back. But when you're recovering, it's really important to stay away from mold as much as possible, but it's not realistic to avoid mold for the rest of your life. And I hear a lot of these stories about, you know, I went to a friend's house for dinner and then I was on the couch for three days. Like, that's not my experience of what happens. You develop some resiliency. I think that the mold issue that we're having is modern buildings in combination with modern living and the stress and the poor health that we've already got. I often think, you know, my heritage according to ancestry is very much in like Northern England and Scandinavian countries where it's cold and damp. And people were not experiencing CIRS back then that we know of. And I get this a lot. It'll be with people that have had a really, really traumatic experience with mold. And then they'll get really focused on the testing and they almost become like sample holics. I call them and I'm like, listen, you need to stop. We are doing too much testing on your house. Your house is totally fine. I've tested it three times, like sometimes every room, and I'm like, there is nothing going on in this. House that's concerning. And they'll be like, but why were the numbers higher this time than last time? And it's like, I'm not just looking at the numbers to make this a healthy home. You know, they're like, it's safe or it's dangerous? I go, it doesn't work like that. The mold levels change all day every day. Outside and inside. If you vacuumed in the last hour, I'm gonna get different results in your house than I got. If I've knocked the curtain and ruffled the curtain when I walked past and then took a sample, I'm gonna get a higher number. But what we are looking at is we are trying to compare the outside. The generative mold that you find at an indoors sample to the outside sample. And we wanna see the same general, but preferably in less numbers. But you're not always gonna find it in less numbers. We don't wanna see aspergillus penicillium going through the roof. But you know, it's a real matter of trying to educate people about not getting focused on the numbers.'cause again, they'll get on those forums and someone will go, oh, I got a small count of a thousand. I'm leaving my house. I've been in homes, so I've got 200,000 in an air sample. I mean that they do need to leave their homes. If someone's got a lot of mold outside and there's a lower number inside, could that still be problematic? It, it might maintain? Well, yes, sometimes it can. It's not a moisture, like a leaking issue, it's just the environment. Well, sometimes it can be. So that's why it's the whole picture. It's not just that, it's just another piece of the puzzle that we are looking at. But sometimes, yeah, I can go outside and I might get 15,000. I'm like, well, if you've got serves and you've got 15,000 outside. And you've still got really high levels of aspergillus, penicillium outside. And that's also what I'm finding in your house. But in your house, I'm finding 7,000, then we have to really, 7,000 would be considered high if you were just looking at it by itself. But you should not be looking at it by itself. It should always be compared to a control sample or a reference sample from another room. And it might be that you live in a environment that's really leafy and shaded and sometimes I walk around the outside of a house and I can smell mold everywhere. And I'm like, you open your windows, you're gonna have mold inside as well. So you might be allergic to the area. You might have a problem with the area. Yeah. Never buy a home in a rainforest. I always say. And while we're on testing, surface sampling, air sampling, what's the best option? ERMI HERTSMI? Can you give us some ideas around that? Yes, I'm not a fan of the ERMI HERTSMI. I just think it freaks people out. They always come back. They contact me and go, oh my God, I've just done an ERMI HERTSMI and it's through the roof. I need you to come and do. Well like, what does this mean? What does this mean? And I'm like, well, you know, what it means is you've taken a sample from the very top of like a door or a railing that has never been wiped or sampled for 30 years. Nothing's ever happened to that. You're gonna find all sorts of stuff in that. And is that really reflective of what's going on in your house? I find not that often. Look, it can be useful. But I tend to think if you're gonna spend the money on that, you're better off spending the money on going. Alright. Let's take an air sample from this room, an air sample from outside, an air sample from a non-affected room and see what we got going on. Rarely do I need to sample mold when I see mold, because I can tell you what unless we wanna know exactly what species that is,'cause you might to relate it to what you might be reacting to. Or if we need it for a report, like it can be very handy. Because it'll come back super. It'll come back in the hundreds of thousands of a bad mold. And it always looks sprayed in a report if you need to get out of something or you're trying to prove that there is an issue in the house. So in those situations we will, but, you know, sampling is costly and so I always say to people, well, I'm not gonna sample that because I know that's mold. I can see it. And the air sample's more important. I'm much more interested in what are you breathing in in this room? So that's generally more important. But yeah, they're both very useful samples and that's what I like. I like to do just the aerosols or the the bio tapes. I haven't really done an imi or it hurts me for quite a while. And just the visual inspection and the moisture measurements are really what are the most important. Well, that's it. And you know, I'm not experienced, I don't have the expertise in interpreting the reports. If people just cannot get the building biologist, they can't get somebody come out. There are some at home testing that you can do, but just like with the functional testing that you do with your body, there are limitations. You need to know how to interpret them. You need to know the right conditions to take them in to be able to understand the results. But I will reiterate again, I really encourage people to get a building biologist because they're going to guide you on remediation. They're going to guide you on whether you need to do the extra sampling or not finding the leak. All of those things, it's their expertise and it makes my job a lot easier when somebody comes back and said, I've had my biologist come in, we need to do this, and this.'cause then I don't need to try and figure out how to help them.'cause I don't know all the answers when it comes to the home. Yeah. Yeah. Just switching gears a little bit, because I know when you came to my home, you did EMF sampling and I really loved the test that you did with the iPads because we looked at what it looked like. With the wifi on and we had a look, you know, the EMF coming off the TV wasn't so bad because it was, the distance was there, but the iPads, kids are looking at them up close. I always tell my kids, no devices on your lap. Protect your reproductive organs. You know, don't lay down and have it too close to your head. Tell me some of the things that you are seeing why is EMF problematic for the health? Like, what are you seeing out in the world of people's homes? Yeah, I've just seen homes these days, very smart homes these days. Everyone's got their, you know, the kids are all wearing their little AirPods and they have the mesh system in the houses and everyone's got wireless speakers beside their bed. And driving electric car. Yeah. And even things that are designed for children that just have such a high EMF output and baby monitors, they're crazy high, most of them. So yeah, sometimes it's quite funny'cause people might get me and they'll go, oh, there's a mobile phone tower, you know, 400 meters down the road and I'm really concerned about it. And we're thinking we might need to move or something. I go in there, the tower is having no effect on the house. And I'm like, you've got a crazy high, but it's all your own doing. Like, if you just moved all this stuff out of the bedrooms, it would be fine. So it's just knowing where it is, how much it's producing and where it's gonna go. There are other things. That's the main thing people think about is the wireless radiation radio frequencies from all your wireless devices. But there's also the magnetic and the electric field. Now the magnetic field is, I think it's probably the most concerning. And you won't know unless you get that measured in older homes that you can often have a very high magnetic field. If they've separate, like they might separate the active in the neutral when they're doing the wiring and that just creates a big sort of loop. And you get this and then you've got a huge magnetic field or they used to. I think they still, I don't know if they still do it. But they'll earth the house to the plumbing. And so then you've got current traveling on your water pipes. And so that again, creates massive magnetic field that runs wherever those pipes are running, wherever those cables are running, you know, under the floors or through. So you can track it when you've got the meter, you can track and see where it's going. And sometimes it's right behind a bed head or I did a home the other day and the husband's bed head was directly behind the solar inverter. Which had feeder cables that were coming around and it must've been separated'cause I don't normally get such high readings from it. And it was sort of wrapped around the house. So he had the meter box right, like literally this far from his head. And he had the fronus inverter this far from his head and all the cables running right back. I got 1000 mGal on the wall, which I don't even get that high if I go to like a transformer on a power line outside. And I said, oh my goodness. This is like the highest I've ever seen on a, literally on a wall. Now it drops off very quickly with distance. So by the time where it was, where his head was actually sleeping, it had dropped down to 21 mGal. But we want it to be less than 2 mGal during the day and less than 0.2 mGal at nighttime. It's never gonna, it's not gonna drop down to that. So you're sleeping in this very, very high field. Now the World Health Organization classifies magnetic fields over 4 mGal as a class 2B carcinogen. So it's like a possible carcinogen because there was some epidemiological studies done in the seventies where they were finding cancer clusters in children, and they couldn't work out why. Why have we got these? And then they realized, oh, okay. Like they all live near these high voltage transmission wires. And so they developed the gas needed to be able to measure that field. And that's when they said, oh, it looks like if a child's living in over a 10 year period or something of sleeping in a field of over 4 mGal, it doubles the likelihood of childhood leukemia. And it's not, people just go, oh, well it's, you know, it's not just the cancer thing. It's what it does. All EMF, it's stress on your body. It's causes blood brain barrier, permeability. It causes oxidative stress. There've been numerous studies, thousands of studies showing all this. A lot of these are animal studies or, you know, whatever. But we know that it affects sperm. We know that phones in the cell phone radiation can affect sperm and make it swim around in circles and not be able to find where it's gonna go or have to. Yeah. I tell both of my boys, no phones in your pockets. I want grand babies one day. And my son even my 16-year-old says to me, mom, very occasionally he will have it in his pocket for a short period of time, which I say is okay. But you'll say, I think I feel my leg getting warmer. Do you think that's real? No, absolutely it's real. But if you're doing it all the time, you won't notice it. And no one is doing studies on the cumulative effect of all these EMF. And obvious these people are making money out of them so they're not making say that they're not safe. And one of the gaslighting lines I've heard a lot is, oh, it's not radiation.'cause it's not the same radiation as x-ray machines. It's a different type of radiation. It makes your cells leaky. which means things can come in and out. As you said, the oxidative stress, mitochondrial damage, everybody's tired. Children are so fatigued. Their mitochondria is not working. They're not producing that energy. That's exactly right. And look, of course, it doesn't break the DNA bonds like an x-ray will. Which is a direct link to cancer, but it's the downstream effects that it's causing. And you've gotta look at that. Like just a bad night's sleep is extremely bad for you, right? It's the waking up. It's the lack of melatonin production. Add to that, the blue light that everyone's staring at right before they go to bed. It's a world of just fatigue and stress on your body. You are not giving your body that chance to recover and repair overnight, which is the most important thing. Like you said before, we're so resilient. We can handle a lot. We can take an onslaught. But we do have to have that time to repair. And that's why it's so important that the bedroom is that place where you repair. And that's what I tell my clients. You gotta get the devices out of the bedrooms and the amount of people sleeping with their phones by the bed or kids under the bed or they go to sleep listening to music with headphones in and I'm that mom who they're not allowed AirPods. I'm that mom Why we the only ones who have our computers out in the lounge room. Yeah. Even is one part of it. The whole, cybersecurity is another part. But it's like every little thing you can do can count. And as you said, distance is really important. Every little bit of distance you can create. You don't need to buy all these fancy shielding devices. I'm not even sure how accurate they are. Distance is your best friend. It really is. Distant that's the thing. And that's what's great about EMF. All the wireless stuff can be shielded and shielded very easily. And when I say shielded, I don't mean just, you know, wearing a pendant or sticking a sticker on your phone. It can be attenuated. You can just reflect it the other way. So that's very easy to do. Magnetic fields can't be shielded. It's such a big wavelength that you can't actually shield it. But yeah, distance is always your friend. And it's also you know where these things are. Like, understand what's going on in my bedroom. Am I in a good spot? Might be a matter of moving one meter to the right. And suddenly you're out of that field. And we're very electrically charged. Positive, negative, running through our body. So this is why it's disrupting all of that. We probably should finish up because we are, we've gone for over an hour now. But just two things before we finish those who wanting help? How do you identify a quality building biologists? I send all of my Sydney people to you. I like to have people that I can trust. You need, you know, there Are a lot of charlatans or just don't know what they don't know. How do we find good quality, trusted building biologist who is reputable? So we have a great association called the Australasian Society of Building Biologists. So it's ASBB. In their website, you'll be able to find a list of building biologists in your state. And they've all been trained through the ACEs Academy, and so that's what you want. Yeah. I always put that link in for all of my patients. Oh, and I'd also say, Mel, see if they've got any IICRC training as well, because that's kind of the gold standard in training. So if they've got that particularly for like, for mold, that's important as well, I think. Amazing. Yeah. But you know, it could very well be this EMF. If they've got a high EMF, it might not even be mold. It does have the ability to interrupt things. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. In, in the same way. So, and how can listeners connect with you and find out more about you? Obviously you are gonna be listed on that website? Yes. I'm on that website, but I'm all, my company's called Notoxrox. N-O-T-O-X-R-O-X. My handle on Instagram is@notoxrox. And same on Facebook. I'm probably more active on Instagram than Facebook. So you can contact me through my website or private message me on one of those channels and I'll get back to you. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Your wealth has been amazing and I really just wanna get the information out there because people don't understand the impact that our home environment or our work environment even has on our health. We spend so much time there. Well, thanks Mel. It's been great to chat with you. I haven't seen you for so long. So yeah, Impressive. Thanks very much. So thank you for joining me. I hope you found this episode beneficial. Be sure to subscribe to the histamine well so you don't miss an episode. Leave a review and you can also share this episode with someone who could benefit. If you have any questions you'd like answered. Or have a topic you'd like me to discuss, please go to my website, joanne kennedy naturopathy.com, where you can provide us with that information. Until next time, take care and be well.