Balancing Methylation: A Game-Changer for Mental Health, Perimenopause & Menopause

In this episode of The Histamine Well, host Joanne speaks with Amanda Bradshaw, co-founder of Mood Sense, to explore the critical role methylation plays in mood, mental health, and hormonal transitions like perimenopause. Joanne shares her clinical insights and surprising test results showing that some patients assumed to be under-methylators were actually over-methylating—changing the course of their treatment.

Amanda opens up about her personal health journey through perimenopause and how balancing her methylation significantly improved symptoms like mood swings and hot flushes. Together, they unpack how methylation imbalances can impact not just mental health, but also relationships, family dynamics, and even parenting—especially in neurodivergent households.

Listeners will also gain practical guidance on how the Mood Sense test works, and how diet, lifestyle, and targeted supplements can help restore balance and support emotional resilience.

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Transcript

0:00

Hi, it's Joanne. If you are a woman in perimenopause or menopause, stop what you are doing and stay tuned. This episode is a must listen. We are diving into something that could completely change the way you experience your hormones, your moods, and your mental health. I'm joined by Amanda Bradshaw. Co-founder of Mood Sense to talk about methylation throughout the perimenopause and menopause years. We are talking hot flushes, mood swings, anxiety, overwhelm, and how understanding your unique methylation patterns might just be the missing link in getting these symptoms under control.

Joanne Kennedy: 0:43

Welcome to the Histamine Well Podcast designed for practitioners and patients alike. This is your trusted source for insights on histamine intolerance, methylation, gut health, women's hormones, and much more. I'm Joanne Kennedy. Your host, naturopath, author, and educator. Passionate about breaking down complex science into clear, accessible knowledge. Whether you are a health professional or navigating your personal wellness journey, the Histamine Well Podcast bridges the gap between cutting edge research and practical understanding to empower you with the tools to thrive.

1:23

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the show. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you would've heard me talk about the mood sense at home methylation test. And I'm really excited today to have Amanda Bradshaw, who with her husband, are the founders and creators of Mood Sense. And as I've been saying on my podcast, I'm using this test all the time in my patients and seeing some quite incredible results and actually seeing quite interesting results regarding patients that you would presume are under methylating are actually over. And Amanda, I think I've done something, you know, many tests now and the majority of people are actually over methylating, not under. Whether they've got M-T-H-F-R-G mutation, high homocysteine, low homocysteine. So it's just changed, the way that us practitioners are looking at methylation. So today Amanda is going to very kindly talk us through her journey with perimenopause and that really fun rollercoaster. And how correcting methylation is a game changer for the mood and hot flushes and everything that goes around perimenopause. And then Amanda's gonna also share with us her journey with mental health over the years and how in hindsight, she's always had methylation issues that were just not picked up because no one knew about it. Back in the day, Amanda, when you were eight years old.'cause you are what, 48 now? So 40 years ago. in hindsight, Amanda can see that she's always had methylation issues. And then with perimenopause. And I'm 49. I can attest to this, like the mood becomes quite unmanageable until you get your methylation corrected. So Amanda, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you Joanne. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, it's great. let's just dive straight in. do you wanna give us a bit of a overview of your journey with perimenopause and how correcting your methylation has really been game changing for helping with that? Yes, absolutely. I've been perimenopausal, at least for the last two years. It's really hard to tell because I've had other health issues that have combined to just add to a lot of misery for me. But at least two years, I suspect the women in my family go into perimenopause pretty late in age. So yeah, I am 48, but at least the last two years. But the first real concrete experience that I had that told me, yes, this is perimenopause. Was, night sweat that I had. I know it's not fun to talk about, but that was four or five months ago and I woke up just miserable. I felt like I was on fire. It felt like a sunburn all over my whole body. But I remembered that I had had this experience before when I had taken high doses of niacin. And that I took because I am an over methylator. so in our years of experimentation, back in the day when we were trying to understand methylation, trying to balance methylation. James said, Hey, take niacin. And I'm one of those people that if a little bit is good, then a lot is even better. So I, I took a lot of niacin that day and we laid down to bed and I woke up shaking James and I said, I think I'm dying. Something is wrong. And so he said, no. I gave you Niacine and I wonder if that affected you in some way. So he looked it up and he said, oh, no, no, no. it's just the flushing that comes from taking niacin. It wasn't the non flush niacinamide, things like that. So we just balanced out my methylation'cause I pushed it way too far down. Mm-hmm. So I pushed it back up to balance and went back to sleep. back to this last January, when I had my hot flash, I realized this is a hot flash and it's actually an under methylation symptom. and I've underm methylated before. So when I took the mood sense test, it wasn't severely under, it was I think maybe a negative two or three. But I think it was the rapid drop in methylation that caused it. So during perimenopause with the unstable hormones, estrogen was really struggling and it must have dropped my methylation really quickly. that's kind of been my go-to now when I feel really hot or when I'm feeling, you know, raging. I know that it's under methylating and I'm able to push it back up using TMG or trimethylglycine. Push my methylation back up to balance and feel, normal again. in fact, it's not just the hot flashes that it can affect, but also the mood. Like I was saying, the raging. James and I were watching a movie just two weeks ago and I knew I was under methylating before the movie. I could feel a little bit of frustration. I was feeling warmer as well. I took a couple TMG, and then I sat next to him. He put his hand on my leg and he was. He was chomping on popcorn right next to me. And the rage, you're laughing already. The rage that builds up inside me over him. Chewing popcorn. Okay. So this was extreme for me. And my under methylating was probably negative two, negative three. That's not extreme. But the rage that built up inside me and I took his hand. I said, I don't wanna be touched right now. And then every chew, I was thinking horrible things about this man that I adore. Yeah. And normally popcorn, you know, chewing doesn't trigger anything for me. I don't even notice chewing. Yeah, that's nothing to me. I completely understand. It's like the irritability from the most simple things. I get it as well. Absolutely. and yeah, that's not me. So I know it's my methylation is out of balance. Once it was balanced. Once those supplements I had taken beforehand, once it, kicked in, I was cuddly and warm and just loving. Whereas before I was so prickly and just not approachable, you know, Wow. Interesting. That's my experience kind of in a nutshell with perimenopause, the emotions, the, hot flashes really have gotten under control using what our family has been. This tool that our family has been using for years of balancing methylation. And, it's still, I do have to reduce methylation once in a while as well. So I've always kind of tended to over methylate my whole life. But because of perimenopause, now I'm dealing with the under methylating side of things, and it's pretty frustrating. more often than I ever had to before. But, wow. Interesting. And as, as you were saying, Joanne, with a lot of your clients, even with methylation issues, they over methylate. Or even with M-T-H-F-R gene mutations? I'm the same way. Yeah. Yeah. So just because those genes aren't working properly, doesn't mean that all the methylation is done for. There's other pathways, there's other genes in that methylation pathway. And so it's not a, that system is working or it's not working. It's not a black and white. It, there's this gray area, this whole spectrum in the middle. And that's what our focus is on, is finding that balance somewhere in the middle. Mm, exactly. So just to recap, Amanda. from what I understand and from what I've learned from James and from using this test, a lot of women are over methylating because of estrogen. Mm-hmm. And I've seen this in my patients where they have high homocysteine, MTHFR homozygous C677T, which you would just presume they're under. Mm-hmm. But they're female. Menstruating women. And they are full of estrogen and they are extremely over methylating. We can't just say a hundred percent categorically, but many women with estrogen are over methylating. Which was you. Yeah. And when you were over methylating and you took niacinamide mm-hmm. That was just balancing out your mood to sort of balance out the methylation, correct? Mm-hmm. But then when you went into perimenopause and your estrogen dropped, you became an under methylator. Sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. No, I love it. This is why this test is so great. So sometimes, so this is new. Yeah. I, I'm under methylating more often now than I ever did before. Right. I see. and yeah, sometimes. And sometimes I'm over methylating. And when I charted it, I, I tracked the entire month with using mood sense to see where I landed every morning, kind of my baseline, beginning of the day. And I tracked it the entire month. So this is, again, this is during pen and perimenopause. And it was all over the place. Well, yeah. Okay. So one day I was at Positive one, the next day I could be at negative two. Interesting. And so the supplement I need to balance is gonna be different each and every day. Yeah. And then throughout the day now, because I've found multiple times a day I'm under methylating and I Keep pushing it up with TMG. I did notice on the days that I do red light therapy, it's not as difficult to get my methylation up to balanced and keep it balanced. So I think there's something to be said about reducing inflammation. Mm-hmm. possibly I could probably do better at supporting my detox pathways mm-hmm. As well, so that it takes some stress off of using up all these methyl donors as I'm already low anyway. Yeah. Interesting. So supporting those areas I think would definitely keep me outta the hot flash. Yeah. But do you, did you find that your hot flushes correlated with under methylating? Absolutely. Every time. Okay. Mm-hmm. It's the, okay, so that's great. So it's the hot flushes, the under got the drop in estrogen. What about mood with over methylate? is there a pattern with more anxiety, depression, or irritability with over or under? with regards to like perimenopause hormone, craziness. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everybody's symptoms are different, but for me in general with over methylating most of my life, I would blame myself for anything that went wrong. And I would ruminate over past hurts, ruminate over what's going on, what's going to happen. this doomsday anxiety going on all the time. And it really affected a lot of relationships. Because I was constantly trying to fix everything, and blame myself if something wasn't going right. this is a very dangerous place for women to be if they're in an abusive relationship. I haven't, Had an abusive marriage for sure. I've had other familial relationships that were, toxic for me. Mm-hmm. once I started balancing my methylation, this was the craziest thing, because for years I was thinking, I need to get these people out of my life. Mm-hmm. But it's family. I don't, yeah. Yeah. There's so much guilt and so much shame around family. once I started balancing, I started realizing their issues. it's not mine. This isn't my problem. It's not yours to carry. Yeah. and with over methylating, every time I would interact with these certain family members, I would try to act in a different way than before because I thought, oh, maybe I'll get a different outcome. You know, they're mad at me for this. Well, I'll try this other way. They're mad at me for that. Okay, I'll try this other way. And it was just this losing battle. And as soon as I started balancing, I said this battle is a waste of time. I don't need it in my life. And it might sound heartless, but really it helped me let go of things that didn't belong to me. Mm-hmm. And just focus on the things that did and really taking care of myself and my own mental health. Hmm. Realize that's my job. Yeah. This is all what a psychologist would say to do, but you just, when you are trapped in that over methylating loop, it's very hard to implement those things. Amanda. Can you just, what are the, like the, they're like personality traits, aren't they? More than like mood? I mean, we've got the mood kind of potential mood issues with mm-hmm. Over underm methylating, but there's these personality traits that are quite, indicative of over methylation. Could you just run through absolute run through those? Yes. Because those traits come from the thoughts and those thoughts are born from the mood that you're in already. Yeah. Right. So once you change that mood, it changes that whole chain reaction of thoughts and then personality and then behaviors. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It all changes. so I was really a people pleaser, very much a doormat. I cry at the drop of a hat. Just watching movies, I cry. Hearing a song, I cry. and then just, uh, yeah, lots of, lots of crying. what about, it's self-blaming perfectionism. Mm-hmm. And then there's depression and anxiety that come with it as well. Mm-hmm. But maybe those are secondary because of the frustration and the rumination and, and just feeling so helpless and overwhelmed. Overwhelmed is a really big part of over methylating. Yeah. Overwhelmed. Yeah. And I can attest to that. I have patience now, Amanda. I can kind of see them overwhelmed, anxious, perfectionistic. Yes. Highly empathetic. Empaths, which, mood can go, you know, depressed or anxious or, you know, up and down, depending on many other things. but I'll go through the list. Perfectionist. Yes. and often creative, funnily enough. Empathetic. Yes. Overwhelmed. Yes. Yes. Teary. It's just these, they all say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But there's nothing wrong with empathy. No, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. Scary. Because I still have empathy, but I don't have to carry that person's whole load with me for the rest of the day. Yeah. And that really, that's so crippling. and then I would share it with James at night and I wouldn't be able to sleep. I'm like, guess so-and-so's going through this. And I, I've got to find a way to relieve them of their suffering. that's now my burden to carry. And I'm like, yeah, I already have so much to carry. You already have so much to carry. So, yeah, that's right. you can be empathetic and have boundaries, but when your methylation seriously out of whack, you will ruminate and you get stuck in that loop. I love how you brought up boundaries, because that was such a foreign thing to me. So that's another characteristic of over methylating. Just no boundaries. No boundaries. If someone asks for something, I, oh, of course. Never thinking, well, that's gonna take away from time for my family, or what about my health issues, or what about, no, it's just somebody needs me. And so I've got to drop everything. And now I love that it's a choice. Yeah. It's a choice. I pick and choose what's in my life. It's very, it's so empowering, being balanced. and I'm not saying I'm always balanced, but more often than not, and especially more often than I used to be. So that's a matter. So that, that's been a huge game changer in how I perceive the world and how I behave and how I show up in relationships. Yeah. That's fantastic. And so in the perimenopause swing, when you go under methylating is, that's, as you're saying, that's when you can get quite irritable. Absolutely. And wanna kill James for eating popcorn? Well, yes. That's exactly how I felt. And then just wanted to ring his neck for chewing popcorn. And even the thought of divorce is, that's new to me. Very new. But that's come up a few times. But only when, only when I've been under methylating. Wow. That's crazy. Crazy.'cause when I'm balanced, I see all the amazing things he does around the house. How many things we've gone through together. I wouldn't trade that for anything. Like, I just adore this man. So, to think of these thoughts and I've seen many marriages fall apart. They do. Well, they do. There's statistics on this. Yes, there's statistics on this. Women will, they it ends in relationship breakdown. Absolutely. I can see it. I'm single. I reckon I would be divorced. Interacting with anybody at all when I'm underm methylating is a bad idea because I'll say and do things that I'll regret later that I just, I don't mean at all. Going shopping when I'm Underm methylating bad idea. eating out bad idea. I see these videos where people are like, oh, check out this Karen. And I'm like, yes. I have felt that. I thought these women were crazy. They are underm methylating. Check out the what? Sorry, I missed that. Check out the what? Videos about, of a Karen in the wild, you know, have you seen those videos of women having a, just a meltdown and saying, oh, I need to talk to a manager. You've done this wrong. I need my food redone, blah, blah, blah. Or You're in my way. Or, that is absolutely under meth, under under Methylator. Mm-hmm. That's interesting. And these women have never, I can't say never, but they are not used to underm methylating in such extremes. And so they haven't learned ways to cope with it. Whereas men. Men usually tend to underm methylate. They've found what behaviors are appropriate and what's not and so they stuff that anger and rage. I've talked with James about it. He lived with that for a long time and he had to learn. I can't just go around blaming everybody for what's going on. But women in perimenopause, it's brand new and they think, well now I've been dumped on my whole life and I'm seeing things for the first time that it's everyone else's fault and I'm gonna make sure they know it's their fault. And that that's a characteristic of under Methylating is other blaming. That's so interesting. I am an a slight under methylator, only slight. I do think I've had pretty balanced methylation my whole life. I'm slightly under and my experience with perimenopause is like, I'm like, I rely on. my living 49 years of how I actually relate to people in a pleasant way. Right? So I rely on memory. Like seriously. I'm like, you don't get angry at the sweet sales assistant. Don't yell at the barista if he makes you a bad coffee. Just walk away. Don't get so angry. I used to just be like, yes. Yeah. What ifs? Like, bad coffee. I'd be like, oh, yeah. part of me would say, oh, like, could you mind making this again? It's a bit weak, you know, like, yeah, yeah, thanks. I just throw it away and I go to the better place. No problem. Now I'll just be like, it makes me enraged. Enraged. Yes. And this is just under methylating.'Cause I've done the test and I'm never over. I'm only like slightly under. And I'm definitely lower estrogen than I ever used to be. That's so funny with the coffee. Like if it's done wrong, whatever. An over methylator would never dream of inconveniencing somebody by saying, they got my order wrong. I'll just eat it. Yeah. I'll just have a smile. I like that. I'm just like, I feel like, I mean, I don't, because I can, I'm relying on memory that you don't behave like that in public. But seriously, I can just get so enraged. But the rage. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, it's under methylating.'cause I never used to be like that before. And now Yeah. I'm the same. I would never have dreamed of bring bringing the food back and now when I'm out and the food's not right, I. Or even if it's not right for my kids, I'm like, oh, I'll, I'll have them fix it. I've completely flipped. Completely flipped to the opposite side. Yeah. Because of the underm methylating. My kids are like, mom, no, no, no, no, no. It's fine. It's not that big a deal. And then I'm like, oh, check myself before they get over here. Yeah. Yeah. Do you sometimes know that you just need, would you in that instance, just take some trimethylglycine to support methylation without even doing the test?'cause you kind of know Yes. Yeah. Yes I do. Yes. Yeah. So you get used to the testing. Amanda's gonna tell people that haven't listened to us before. Just a bit about the test. Yes. And how I've seen it work in with patients. So it's like an at-home saliva swab test for methylation. simple, easy to do. when you first do it, you do it for four days consecutively. And you enter that data into the mood sense online portal. And it will indicate if you are over methylating, which is like a plus one up to a plus eight, or under methylating, which is a minus one down to a minus eight. And it's really simple because when you are over methylating, taking niacinamide and vitamin C helps the body, utilize the methyl groups, reduces them. from my clinical experience using this test, it can significantly help those people who are in overwhelm and anxious ruminating insomnia. Or if you're under methylating, it's trimethylglycine. So Trimethylglycine supports the production of sam E. Gently and slowly. So Amanda, I think people's question would be like, why can't I take Sam E? and they can, but it's can often be too much and too strong. Is that correct? Yes. Yeah. I mean, Sam E is used like a natural antidepressant, which is fantastic. Yeah. We, in fact, when we were experimenting with natural supplements to get off of antidepressants, this was before we understood methylation. We tried Sam E. I felt horrible on it because I were over a methylator. adding more methyl donors made me miserable. So I wish there was like a one, just this one pill that you could take every day. You're done, you're happy. that's not the case because you might be over, you might be under, and I in fact, we had experimented with the natural supplements for a while, because I was diagnosed with depression when I was about 20, 21. And it made a lot of sense to me at that moment that I had depression because I thought, well, I've had these symptoms since I was eight. I remember thinking, this isn't normal when I was eight years old. And so to finally be diagnosed and to finally get on medication was just amazing to me. Like it just blew the gates open. I was so much happier on medication. Were you taking An ssri? Yes. SSRIs. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so I would start on a medication and I felt better. There were always some side effects. And I really hated titrating. is that the word titrating up in dosage, because every time I would have about three days where I was just laid out in bed, hallucinating, having huge headaches, it was really horrible. So I would just isolate, you know? And then, with my first pregnancy, they said, well, we don't want you off medication because that's dangerous for you and for the baby. but this medication, we've just, the tests have finally been, the studies have finally been done. It's not safe for the baby. We need to change you to another medication. Mm-hmm. So I had to go through that horrible, yeah. Three, four days of weaning off. Yeah. And then building up on a new medication and it was horrible. Just miserable. So then the next pregnancy, same thing happened. So every. Pregnancy for me, I had to change medications and I had four pregnancies, so it was just miserable. And I thought there's got to be a better way to address this depression. And so, yeah, I tried Sam E,'cause it's a natural antidepressant. I tried multiple. I think I tried St. John's Ward at one time. I don't recommend that at all, but it was balance that I was looking for, so I needed to actually reduce the amount of neurotransmitters Yeah. Going on in my brain. It was too much. I was overwhelmed, overstimulated, but realizing that it's my chemistry and it's not who I am, it's not my personality. it freed me to stop blaming myself for feeling down and depressed and yeah. So that was amazing. Once I started balancing, I even. I, I tested on myself, which is probably kind of crazy. I mean, we were experimenting. It was kind of the wild west at the moment in our family. Yeah. But we would learn so much about methylation and I went, okay, is it really the chemistry that's going on? So I, I tried to override my balanced state. I recognized this one day. I was like, I know I'm balanced.'cause I feel great. I feel unstoppable. I'm not ruminating on old stuff, but I'm not angry at anyone either. I'm right at the sweet spot of balanced. And also, this is before we had developed mood sense tests. So all of it was based on feeling. so I was totally balanced that day and I tried to think of some hurts from my family. like I had told you, some of them were pretty toxic towards me. I had been scapegoated for about 12 years in my family, so it was really, really damaging and I thought of this one moment, or this instance that really triggered me. It was around Christmas. It was really hurtful, something that they had done and usually would send me into a spiral, downward spiral for the day, and I wouldn't be able to get rid of that spiral and snap out of it. You try to snap out of it. I thought about it for maybe 10 seconds. My brain went to my to-do list instead it, I think it got bored. It didn't want the drama, it wasn't interested. I love that. Which was so empowering to me, and I That's so great. I love that. Is it, and to-do list, like, that's exciting. It wasn't. No, but it's, but it's good. No to-do list, to-do lists and like using your brain like just to do, tasks and focus is mindfulness. But it, you know, it wasn't even a deliberate shift. Yeah. My brain just went to my to-do list. And then, another day I did the opposite experiment where I was just spiraling outta control. Spiraling, spiraling. And I knew I was over methylating. I mean, this happened many, many times, but I remember this one specific'cause I was just crying and feeling sorry for myself. And so I took the vitamin C that, that I needed to get balanced. And later on in the day, I realized, oh, I hadn't even thought of that instance for the rest of the day. this, it really is chemical. Yeah, it's chemical. We can see it. I can see that. I can attest to that with the patients that I see. Because it's not until I balance in methylation that they can actually get on top of the nervous system issues. Yes. And the thing with what I do when there's nervous system dysfunction, there is, chronic gut issues. There's chronic high cortisol, there's chronic hormonal dysregulation from all the nervous system disruption and the stress. So it is. It's so helpful to get the nervous system under control. So therefore you can fix the gut. You, in younger women, you can get your hormones back really on, on track. Mm. So it's the classic fight and flight and rest and digest. And I find that women that are over methylating, it's sort of more in that fight and flight, overwhelmed, their nervous systems really jacked up. And, they are told to meditate and do breath work and mindfulness, and they're told to do all this stuff, but it doesn't work that well with them, I find. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It just doesn't, and they sort of then blame themselves. why can't I meditate and why can't I get the benefits that I see other people getting? And it's because they're simply, the methyl groups are stimulating and overproducing these neurotransmitters like dopamine and adrenaline, and they just feel wired and overthinking and sitting down to meditate just doesn't calm them downs. That's a really good point, because. how can they calm down in their meditation if their mind just keeps, yeah. If they're left alone long enough to start thinking about these things, then it starts getting'em in in a downward spiral. Yeah, so I think that's another good characteristic of over methylation is a calendar that's fully booked. Trying to stay super busy so you don't have to sit with your thoughts. Is it interesting? Okay. Because I think I was constantly, well, trying to prove my worth. So I have to do, do, do I have to stay busy? Otherwise, you know, at the end of the day I'll sit down and go, what? What did I do today? I'm not any good. Okay. That's interesting. That's another good character, character trait I can look with my patients. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's interesting. There really are a lot of people, I see it a lot in women. Taking on. they work full time. They've got kids, they do extracurricular things. I'll go and learn, like I had one girl recently, she's going to learn French, and she's so overwhelmed already. I'm like, why are you doing that? she's like, I just need. She just can't sit still. Yes. And I don't have over methylated traits and it was never over methylated, I don't think. I think I was pretty balanced. because I would always be looking at people going like, why are you doing that much? Like, why, why are you taking that much on and why are you, why? And especially with women, I'd be like, why You care? Like, who cares? So boundaries came natural to you. As leader saying no is it's not a big deal. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Just, no. And then I could see it. It's like, why are you And to sort of competitive and competitive with other women, I'm like, why do you care? Like, who cares that you just wanna chill out and have a drink together? You know, competitiveness, great characteristic of under methylation. So James naturally is, at about a negative three, sometimes negative four. And when we got married, I always, I just really admired how he just let things roll off. Yeah. And I wished I could do that more. And he saw me and he's like, how do you have such deep empathy for people? I want to learn to do that. and so we would try to learn from each other, but the implementation was just so difficult for both of us. Now that both of us live at Balance most of the time and in the middle. I am able to let things roll off so much easier. He has more empathy for people and really can see things from their perspective. it's been so fun to see how our relationship has changed as we both balanced together. That we understand each other so well. Before we go any further, I want to speak directly to the practitioners and students listening. If you're intrigued by histamine and methylation and eager to expand your knowledge in this fascinating area. We offer the Histamine and Methylation online group coaching course. The only program of its kind, it covers everything you need to know about histamine and methylation, providing both the theory. And guidance you need to treat these issues effectively in clinical practice. We cover sibo, hormonal imbalances, oxalates, M-T-H-F-R, the four pathways of methylation, including the folate pathway, methionine pathway, tetra hydro biopterin pathway, and the all important transsulfuration pathway and much more. The program is delivered by detailed online webinars and handouts for you to keep. And for eight weeks you'll meet with me for live coaching calls in a private community space with other practitioners from all over the world dealing with histamine and methylation issues in their patients every day. Together we learn so much. To learn more and apply, visit joanne kennedy naturopathy.com. Okay. Can I share an experience like beginning of our marriage that totally illustrates this. That the difference on the over and under methylating side. Okay. So I was pregnant with our first, I went into the room, I said, I think I might have strep throat,'cause I've had strep many times. I knew exactly how it felt. I've got to go to the hospital. And his question to me was, or his response was, how much will it cost? Yeah. And I burst into tears, and I just thought, he's so uncaring. He's so unfeeling. how did I marry this man? He's so horrible. And I couldn't talk to him for about an hour because I burst into tears. he was so upset that he had upset me. He had no idea how could I have upset? Yeah. I just asked a simple question. Just simple question. Yeah. But if I get it, yeah. After I'd calmed down, went back in and talked to him and I said, how could you be so uncaring? I'm carrying our baby and you care more about money than my health? And he said, no, no, no, no, no. That's not it at all. It was a given that you would go to the hospital. I just jumped to how much would it cost? I want him transfer enough from savings and to checking and make sure it's covered. That was it. But his logical under methylating brain. Didn't see anything wrong with that. My over methylating overreactive brain just interpreted it so poorly and really there was no conflict there to begin with. Yeah. It was just both of us seeing the world from a completely different perspective. Yeah. Now that we're in the middle, our communication is quick, easy, very clear. Yeah. I mean, it's just remarkable without extra training or therapy on how do we talk to each other, how do we meet each other in the middle because our brain chemistry is already in the middle. Yeah. Yeah. And it was similar to that with before balancing, we would try to have family meetings with the kids and try to solve issues together. So I learned this technique from a book. You know, have family meetings, talk about problems. You don't call each other names and just bring up the issue and then brainstorm solutions. And I thought this will be great. our first meeting took at least an hour and a half. We didn't solve one problem and it left with me leaving in tears and slamming the door. And I was like, we're never having a meeting like that again. And James followed me into the room. He said, we're gonna keep doing those meetings because obviously we're really struggling with communication. Yeah. So we need to learn how to communicate and we need to teach our children how to communicate. Yeah.'cause it was just a big fight. Yeah. It was just a big family fight. Yeah. We kept working at it, but we found once we started balancing methylation, those meetings were smooth. There was no name calling and we came to solutions like so fast. Yeah, yeah. So quickly that everybody was happy with. they weren't all perfect, but when we would come across, you know, come to like a head and there was a bit of a, an argument or a fight, we would realize somebody is not balanced right now. Yeah. Somebody is blaming and arguing and so we need to address that first before we move on. Mm-hmm. And so we would. We would, you know, make sure, check on everybody you balanced. Are you balanced? Are you, this is a word we use at our house all day long. Let's get balanced. Let's take a 15 minute break. We'll come back and then smooth again. Smooth again. And same for our children. When there's a fight, we have them get balanced before we come back together. And we say, Hey, take a break, get balanced, and then we'll take the time to talk about it. Don't worry. Yeah. We will address the issue, but we find more often than not, when they come back together, there is no issue. Great. They're best friends again. Great. It's amazing. Amanda's husband James is scientist who has developed the mood sense test and he had to do this because you have an autistic child, is that right? Yes. Uhhuh. Yeah. Then and, his wife is crying all the time, so, no, I is normal. Okay. Normal. Yeah, normal. I'm just not, I'm not a cry. It's funny, I'm not a crier. I'm more of a, like an an I get angry more. Any other woman listening to this is going mostly, yeah. Everyone's wife is a crier. Most women are criers. I'm not a crier. It's funny. All my friends cry. I'm like, why cry? I'm not a crier. I should be crying. Crying's good. No, crying is really good for you, for sure. so can you talk to us about your children and how their health issues and how methylation is helping them? Okay. So our oldest has autism, ADHD, and anxiety, all three. And it was the perfect storm from 18 months. She started tantruming just multiple times a day, and her tantrums were huge. Just throwing herself on the floor. Refusing to move. and sometimes these were at home, sometimes they were out in public in the library. She wouldn't move. So I'd have to carry a screaming child out to the car. and then I've got all these other kids. it was a nightmare. I thought I was a terrible parent. I really did. And I tried every parenting technique I could learn. In fact, I studied family life in college, so I thought, I know what I'm doing. No, I met this child and she's the hardest child I've ever worked with. And I, I've worked with children my whole life. Coaching, preschool teacher. I was a sign language interpreter for an elementary school. Like I always worked with children. I love children. And I met this child and I went, what am I doing wrong? And, It got worse and worse, just tantrums constantly. We really weren't addressing the autism because the behavior was so bad. We were just trying to get her behavior manageable. And so at 14, I hate telling this story. The outcome is good, but I didn't handle it so well. I, well, I tried multiple supplements for A DHD for behavior to calm her, these kinds of things. she was in school. We had homeschooled for years. She went to school through junior high and I just felt like it was a beautiful break while she was at school. And then, when she would come home, it was tantrums and. Just trying to stay out of her wake really. And then when she calmed after her tantrum, we'd try to talk to her about it and try to problem solve and she wouldn't really remember the interaction. So it was like two different children or like she had blacked out during the fit. So, let's see. We tried medications as well, not great. so I was at my wit's end and I brought it to James and I said, I've tried everything and she needs to go into a home because it's either her or the rest of the family. Yeah. because it caused so much turmoil that everybody was suffering. Yeah. And in fact, the other kids were saying things like, when I move out, she's never coming to my house. And I don't wanna see her again. Yeah. Or they would refuse to play games with her because her tantrums were so bad. and I thought we can't live like this. And he refused, which I'm so grateful for. Also, we couldn't afford a group home, so yeah. That was turned out for the best. Right. Because he said, no, I refuse to let that happen. and I said, then you have to find the answer. I know there's some kind of scientific explanation for what's going on. Certain foods I know trigger her sugar. We've tried to cut out and anytime she has sugar, she just goes ballistic. By the way, sugar reduces methylation. Yep. So I've seen it. There was a big piece of the puzzle. I've seen it in patients. Yep. Yes. He said, I'm gonna sign, you know, I'll try to look at it. And I said, it's your problem. I feel so bad. But I really just dropped it on him. I tried. No man. But it's, it's too, he's the scientist and he is the under methylator, so yeah. He can deal with it. You do you fix this? I said, you fix it. Yeah, no, I just, and I feel terrible that I saw my daughter as a, a problem to fix. No. But I talk to other parents and they feel very similarly with at least one of their children. Yeah. Oh. And through all this time, our children fought all the time. Every game we played ended in a fight and like I said, the family meetings. Yeah. Always ended in a fight. Yeah. We would go try to do a fun activity. By the time we were in the car on the way home, they were fighting. Yeah. And it was just so much I. And here I am an over methylator and I'm already overwhelmed and all this fighting is going on. Yep. So, he started looking into genetics, learned about methylation and the M-T-H-F-R gene that started us down this path and we learned more and more. Yeah, you can see that there's methylation issues in the genetics, but what about in real time? And we started learning for ourselves, I can't remember how, but realized that methylation is a moving target. So just because you see this issue in your genetics doesn't tell you the whole picture. Mm-hmm. You can look at all these, you know, it's like getting caught up in the forest. You can only see the. Wood for the trees. You can't see the forest for the trees. Forest for the, that what it is, the trees. Yeah. So you're looking at each individual tree, but really there's this whole big system going on and multiple systems pulling from this one. Mm-hmm. The methylation system. Mm-hmm. And so James started analyzing my DNA,'cause I had horrible health issues and started with our daughter because of her behavior issues. And he's like, wow, there's a lot of answers here in the DNA. We started really addressing methylation, cutting out folic acid was a huge one. Mm-hmm. And it's so hard to do. Yeah. But so rewarding. I mean, just tenfold reward from cutting out folic acid. Can you tell me what, you saw in your eldest daughter the improvements in her from just removing folic acid. Oh my gosh. well, the tantrum stopped. Wow. her hugs didn't hurt anymore. This was so bizarre. We didn't really think about, well, we didn't even know. Our younger daughter brought it up to us first and she said, her hurts don't hurt anymore. And I was like, I didn't know they did. This is horrible. Wow. Wow. she started picking up on social cues like nothing else. And it wasn't from explicit training that we had to give her, which was like every behavior before then we had to give explicit training. her memory improved so much that when, we started homeschooling her again. Her scores went from like 20 and 30%. Which is really bad, up to 60 and 70%. Oh, that's great. Like overnight. Wow. That's amazing. This was amazing. And then she would start retelling stories like, oh, I remember when I was little, this happened. And I was like, I didn't know you remembered anything from that time period. Like, this is so amazing. Wow, that's amazing. And it just, it's like the lights finally turned on for her. Her brain was processing things faster and better, and she would retain it. In fact, when we did testing with a neuropsychologist and he was giving us advice on schooling and stuff, he said, don't push her past eighth grade math. That's too much. She's, she can't handle that. she finished 10th grade math. That's amazing. Yeah. She did a great job at it. Yeah. So, yeah, is she M-T-H-F-R? Yes, absolutely. Yes. Homozygous C677T um, uh, you'll have to ask James I'll the say stuff. And was she in under Over methylator? Over methylator. So there you go. Just this is it guys. So here we are. Right? She's, so, MTHFR does not dictate where you land on the scale. No, it does not at all. It doesn't at all. It doesn't dictate where you're on the scale. However, it does affect how you process folate Yes. And folic acid. Yep. And so, and it does slow down methylation. It does slow down the processes, but there's so many other genes in that pathway. Again, there's 11 genes in the methylation pathway. So there's workarounds. Yeah. There's other things. And again, it's not black and white. There's this whole spectrum, all these different factors pushing and pulling on your methylation. And what the mood sense test does is lets you know the outcome of all these different factors, your internal factors, your external factors. I like to compare it to, if a diabetic isn't feeling well, they've gotta check exactly where their blood sugar's at. Mm-hmm. To get balanced. They're not gonna run and look at their genetics to figure out why they're feeling this way right now. Yeah. That's good. Great analogy. Yeah. So did you ever give your daughter methylfolate? yes, actually she does take methylfolate. Okay. So she's good on it. But we do push methylation down if she needs it. So. That's the thing. If you're just taking methylfolate to address it, it could be pushing your methyl donors too high and making you feel even worse. Yeah, I think from this, her methylfolate is supporting what we call the Biopterin pathway, which has to do with neurotransmitter recycling, whereas it's a different pathway just to like the creation of Sam E and these methyl donors. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. So she takes both methyl folate, but she's an over methylator. Yeah. But she'll take niacinamide when she needs it. Yeah. and here's, okay, so because it's such a moving target, you may need to push methylation up in the afternoon. When I would over methylate more often, I would push methylation down in the morning to be at zero. But then there's all these other factors, environmental factors, foods, stress. Mm-hmm. tv, like screen time, all those things push methylation down. Wow. So just because I was an over methylator doesn't mean I'm always pushing it down, pushing it down. So I start, you know, I take the test, see that I'm over, I push down to zero. I feel great. In the afternoon, I might start getting crabby at my family because I had, who knows, spinach or bananas. Histamine foods, you know a lot about histamine. Yeah. Yeah. Or I'll have a stressful day. Mm-hmm. Or I'll be on the computer too long, then I will underm methylate. So not all over methylators are always over methylating. I mean, especially if you're balancing out, then you're, yeah, yeah. I understand. It says, yeah, so I, should I say Amanda, if someone is just like an over methylated like plus six every day and they're not balancing, it's gonna be pretty hard for the environment just to pull them right down to under. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So they probably will never have experienced underm methylation until they start balancing and then they're like, oh no, I get mad at my family in the afternoon. This is not right. I'm doing it all wrong. Or the test isn't working, or the supplement's not helping. No, it's because. Great. You are at zero now. You're probably at negative one or two. Now take TMG to get back into the middle. That's okay. Adjusting throughout the day is a normal process, but what we want for people through mood sense is to take the test each day for whatever period of time you need. Figure out your symptoms of over methylating and you can see the number exactly where you're at on the scale. Figure out which supplement works best for you, and balancing that. So now you're recognizing your own symptoms of over methylating, under methylating, and know exactly what to take. We don't want people dependent on these tests forever. But it's kind of a tool to hold your hand as you're learning your own responses to these environmental factors, supplements, things like that. And for kids, they'll give you clues. Like, they'll use words like stupid or he's a jerk, he's stupid. You'll see patterns in kids sometimes that you can say, oh, this really looks like over methylating or under methylating. But then there's some kids that are really tricky. I have one son. His behavior and the way he feels on the inside, it's the same on either side of the scale. Oh, wow. He's the same. Yeah. He, but, but balancing it just corrects, corrects it. Absolutely. So the test really comes in handy for, for kids like that who look and feel the same on either side of the scale. Yeah. Yeah. That's, so, that's great. So I think I just wanna tell listeners that, the test is so easy to do and the supplements that you take to balance are very simple. Mm-hmm. Two for over, one for under, and then. There is all the lifestyle staff that needs to be addressed. from working with a practitioner or, I know that you've got resources on your website, so, but I've found that when you just simply balance your methylation, you are gonna be more emotionally stable and you're gonna be more motivated to implement these lifestyle changes.'cause we don't have to be like testing like five times a day and like a balancing out all day. Like it's not like that. It's like we test. we try and balance. And then we implement the lifestyle stuff that can make us just more stable. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Or just recognizing these, if I'm going to eat all these foods, like if I'm gonna just pound a bowl of guacamole, I know that is going to push my methylation down. I can take a TMG with it. Yeah. Fine. Yeah. Then, then I'm calm. Like we'll have our kids balance when they have hot cocoa.'cause it's a double whammy with sugar and chocolate. Both use it methyl donors. Hey guys, get a TMG with it. Everybody's good. We stay balanced. Or if we go out for a treat, like when they would get grumpy on the way home from a fun activity, it's'cause we got ice cream on the way home. Yeah. The cone had folic acid in it. Yeah. The ice cream probably had Dexter in it. Yeah. And then chocolate and sugar. Yeah. Okay. So we're all just bombed out the rest of the day just hating each other. It's so interesting. But we are so addicted to these yummy things. Yes. This is interesting. I mean, I'm, totally perimenopause. I haven't had hot flushes before. it's freezing in Sydney. It's colder than it ever normally is. I um, I've just been eating chocolate bullets, like chocolate licorice. Like you've got no, like old, like I've, I'm eating way more sugar than I ever do and I am having hot flushes. Constant. I bet. Yeah. Constant. And so, and I'm low estrogen. So I bet you I'm really, really Underm Methylating. Yeah. And I'm doing no exercise, which increases methylation. That's really interesting. Oh, yes. I was gonna mention that for perimenopausal women, reduce that inflammation, but also exercise pushes it up. Yeah. Where we have friends that because they've been over methylators their whole life, don't enjoy exercise because it makes you grumpier. Wow. That's interesting. So over methylating exercise as a perimenopausal woman. Yeah. No, I don't, I normally do. I've just, I've just been, I've just got back from Portugal, I've been busy. And I've just, yeah, but that's just interesting. I'm thinking, I've seen clinically in my patients like sugar gives them hot flushes, but I didn't realize Yes. Why? I didn't realize why, but it, it's sugar and chocolate. Both I've having that. I've been waking up extremely hot Wow. Where chocolate used to be. Our friend, I have closet chocolate. I don't eat it now, but I used to eat it all the time because I'm an over methylator. I was self-medicating and pushing my, my methylation down. So it calmed you. Yes, absolutely. Bring my methylation down into zero. Now I can do without the chocolate and the sugar. Yeah. No, this is just really fascinating to me. I'm not really a sugar addict, it's just sort of creeped up on me, actually. So, um, I'm gonna stop today, now that I know that, that's great. You're gonna stop cold Turkey. I know. I am. I'm just, I'm just waking, I can't regulate my body temperature, like at all. Mm-hmm. So I just increase my estrogen. But you can't just rely on like, increasing your estrogen and keep eating chocolate licorice. It doesn't work like that. You're taking the poison and the antidote together. Yeah. Yeah. that's what naturopath can do. And try and we do do that. We take uppers and downers. We do. But it just, it's not, it never works. It's always, you gotta be looking at like the diet and lifestyle stuff. So it's about balance. That's so hard. Yeah. More exercise for me. Less, just no more sugar and chocolate. Fascinating. Well, Amanda, this is so, this is so great and I, um, I really thank you and James for like, getting this test out there.'cause it's just so useful for people. And I, and practitioners listening. I have had some beautiful patients of mine come back to me after being put on Methylfolate. Yeah. Just because they've got M-T-H-F-R and they're a mess, right? they're just psychologically in a very dark place. So if a practitioner's listening, you need to look at what is going on with methylation in real time. Can't rely on gene testing to tell us what to do. Can't rely on high or low homocysteine to dictate if someone's what someone's going on with their methylation. this test is amazing, this test. guys, I've got a link to this test on my website and there's a discount you can use to get 10% off, which is HISTAMINEWELL10. if you are interested in methylation, this is the test that you need to do. And then if you are interested in working with all the different environmental things that are gonna impact your methylation, we are here to help. So, environmental things that will be working on is things like digestive enzyme function, mold, oxalate, sibo, gut function, balancing out your hormones, helping you with your diet.'cause this stuff helps, just get your methylation more balanced so that you are not testing to five times a day. you can get a grip on it yourself. you might need to balance five times a day, but hopefully you can learn enough that you don't have to test. That's right. Every, you can just say every time you just know this is what it feels like I need about this much TMG. Yeah. And you can just start to understand, Great. Well, that's great, Amanda. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome. We'll see soon. I always love chatting with you, Joanne. Oh, you're welcome. Thanks, Amanda. Okay, take care. So thank you for joining me. I hope you found this episode beneficial. Be sure to subscribe to the histamine well so you don't miss an episode. Leave a review and you can also share this episode with someone who could benefit if you have any questions you'd like answered. Or have a topic you'd like me to discuss, please go to my website, joanne kennedy naturopathy.com, where you can provide us with that information. Until next time, take care and be well.